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Tiny-Cheesecake t1_j5ovjar wrote

"Ruining our businesses, frightening our customers. It’s like having a ghetto in the heart of a wonderfully safe neighborhood community.”

This is... maybe not... the best possible phrasing in a historically Jewish neighborhood, never mind the anti-black tones of the word. (Kids do sound like assholes, though.)


JustHereForTheSaul t1_j5piat5 wrote

These kids are starting giant brawls and raping girls and your chief concern is that a business owner should watch the words he uses to describe them?


motociclista t1_j5p0cju wrote

That sentence gave me pause as well. It had a sense of “Those people” should stay in their own neighborhood. Maybe it wasn’t meant that way, but it was tone deaf phrasing. Sensei George is going to regret that, methinks.


GargantuanWitch t1_j5p1eva wrote

Yeah, you don't get to casually use the word "ghetto" when you are located in the actual Jewish center of the city. Sensei George should take a lesson in "reading the room."


[deleted] t1_j5pchar wrote



GargantuanWitch t1_j5pexq9 wrote

Also, it's real weird that the argument seems to be whether or not this person offended Black people or Jews, and not "Maybe don't call a place a ghetto just because you feel like the neighborhood has the "wrong" people in it."


GargantuanWitch t1_j5pe89f wrote

I don't think it's outrageous to expect that a business owner maybe understand the area where his business is located and not put his foot in his mouth by using a term that, at best, has racist connotations, and at worst, is the exact name that the people who didn't like Jews came up with to describe the place where they deserved to live.


imadv8r2 t1_j5pihil wrote

“Those” is a demonstrative pronoun. The fact that so-called pc attitudes and cancel culture have made its use of merely specifically pointing something out is ridiculous.

In this case, it isn’t people at large, it’s those people who leave Alderdice and hangout at Starbucks while waiting for the bus who are creating the problem.

You know, those people who shoplift at all the stores in that area and beat up an elderly female shop owner who tried to protect her business.

Those people who assaulted a uniformed city police officer in Starbucks and sent him to the hospital.

Those people who are underage and openly smoke marijuana on Murray Avenue (and in buildings on Murray they break into).

Those people whose daily, riotous behavior scares the elderly residents off the streets, and makes egress into the pediatric orthodontist and the physically therapy facilities within the Starbucks building dangerous.

Those people who leave their garbage strewn about the sidewalks, overturn trash cans and shatter plate glass windows.

Those people who gang raped a 15 year old special needs girl in the bathroom inside Starbucks and at an adjacent vacant Murray Avenue property they broke in to.

Those people who ditched loaded handguns in the surrounding Squirrel Hill neighborhood outside of Alderdice.

Stop getting caught up in this fashionable inclusion rhetoric when “Senei George” is merely pointing out those people responsible for the myriad problems on the block.

In fact, your terminology could be equally construed as a similarly racist comment, except for George is an actual sensei, much like those people are actually directly responsible for the issues (and more) enumerated above.

But hey, why don’t you come down to Murray and Forward around 2-2:30 and see for yourself?


motociclista t1_j5pr8wk wrote

I’m not sure I understand your outrage. I didn’t take issue with the word “those”. Context matters. I merely pointed out that his statement may be taken in a way he didn’t desire. And even pointed out that may not have been intentional. I’m not offended or calling for anyone to be “canceled”. Just made an observation. And I don’t think I said anything negative or racist about Sensei George. In fact, I don’t know George’s race, so it would be pretty hard for me to have racism in my heart for him. I get it. You hate modern pc cancel culture and had a rant chambered, but I’m not sure my comment was worthy of your diatribe.


imadv8r2 t1_j5pszuh wrote

If you didn’t mean it that way, why would you quote him and then say it was “tone deaf?” His…annunciation??

What else could you possibly be insinuating?

I don’t hold it against you—I was just making the observation that it was, indeed, those people, and calling someone out for a grammatical choice rather than coming out against the behaviors he described is simply ridiculous.


motociclista t1_j5puuae wrote

I meant what I said. I didn’t insinuate anything. I stated, that he may regret that word choice. It comes off in a bad tone. Again, context matters.


BRDeschain t1_j5qkqra wrote

Well what is he insinuating then? I’d love to hear it since it isn’t anywhere in their comment.


GargantuanWitch t1_j5pj3cq wrote

lol it only took until Tuesday to get a Tough Guy Invite this week!


j428h t1_j5plodm wrote

Honestly those people typically take longer to send out invites


imadv8r2 t1_j5pufho wrote

To be fair, those people wouldn’t know what an invite was, let alone send one out—mainly because they’re skipping school en masse and smoking their way through life and destroying Squirrel Hill South.

But this person does, and welcomes you to come on down from behind your keyboard and experience firsthand what those people are doing.


GargantuanWitch t1_j5pzm30 wrote

Do I need to wear body armor like everyone is suggesting? I'll grab some around the corner after I'm done at the juice bar and shoe store.


motociclista t1_j5ps185 wrote

He was probably at karate practice yesterday, didn’t have time to send out invites until today.


madirish098 t1_j5rdywh wrote

probably been getting their self confidence up at sensei George’s dojo!


Caiterz4catzz t1_j5pt9zf wrote

What business did the shop owner assault happen? (Not doubting, I just hadn’t heard of that one)


PittsburghChris t1_j5s1kfh wrote

Also, the use of the word ghetto isn't privileged to any singular class of people. The business owner is clearly trying to explain that when lawless behaviors occur daily, it is like, well, a ghetto. Where society is broken.

The only racial connotation I picked up on was from commentary in this thread being critical of the use of the word, like it is protected. It is not. Ghettos happen. If you don't like it, don't attack the person who mentions that he suffers from it. Changed the policies that created it.


aboutsider t1_j5tem4u wrote

A group of teenagers acting anti-socially in the space of a few blocks is not at all comparable to a racially segregated neighborhood built on systemic injustice. If you think that ghetto doesn't have racist connotations then I have a hard time believing that you understand what the word means.


madirish098 t1_j5rdecl wrote

Bet they challenge the sensei for his dojo again once they read this article.


anthrax3000 t1_j5pbme4 wrote

They damaged his property, raped another student nearby, 5 boys entered his karate student and challenged him to a fight

You think having 30-50 teens from low income families " just hanging out" is good for a community?


DesertedPenguin t1_j5rv209 wrote

Is having 30-50 teens from affluent families "just hanging out" good for a community?

Why is their income status worth mentioning?


anthrax3000 t1_j5s55ne wrote

Because we live in the real world and income is the highest predictor of crime? Do you feel safer in shadyside or Homewood?


DesertedPenguin t1_j5sabld wrote

People with road rage or an inherent inability to drive are much more of a risk to me than simply being in Shadyside, Homewood, Bloomfield, Wilkinsburg, Squirrel Hill, or anywhere else.

I have never once felt unsafe in any of the lower income neighborhoods in the Pittsburgh area.

The reality is that there is obviously a problem with SOME of the teens who are congregating in this area after school, and that it will take collective effort on behalf of Pittsburgh Public, PRT and the community to solve it.

But there are also a lot of people in this thread painting with some really broad brushes. According to the state, 41.6% percent of Allderdice students are economically disadvantaged. That means 58.4% percent are not. There is no way of anyone in this thread to know for sure what the socioeconomic demographics are of those who are causing problems. Everyone else is making a classist assumption.


anthrax3000 t1_j5t8te4 wrote

Lol you've never felt unsafe in Homewood? Have you ever walked there past 6pm?


GargantuanWitch t1_j5phri0 wrote

Sorry to break it to you, but there's no rule that says 30-50 people aren't allowed to be in public without your express permission. Even if they're teens!


>They damaged his property, raped another student nearby, 5 boys entered his karate student and challenged him to a fight

You sure those were all the same people? Clutch those pearls a little tighter. Squirrel Hill isn't turning into 1980s-era Compton.


imadv8r2 t1_j5pltdm wrote

But there is a rule that says they can’t be disorderly. Or assault anyone. Or damage property. Or—wait for it—RAPE someone.

And yep, it was those people—unless there’s another group of duplicitous Alderdice students who regularly invite mayhem while waiting for the bus at Starbucks.

But you’re right—it’s nothing like 80-era Compton.

It’s more like being on its way to 60s Watts.


WorkingPleasant t1_j5rc8mn wrote

I can tell you as a student at dice who knows people involved in some capacity in all of these incidents, none of these were committed by the same group of kids


Sankara_Connolly2020 t1_j5qokuy wrote

The upvotes to this are a sad reminder to never underestimate white liberals capacity for getting more upset over possibly offensive language than violent actions.


Zenith2017 t1_j5zv7qm wrote

Maybe both things can be true at the same time, that it's a poor choice of wording and that this destructive and unacceptable behavior must be addressed.


aboutsider t1_j5tesnq wrote

You're only assuming they're more upset about wording than violent actions.


Silly-Donut-4540 t1_j5puc50 wrote

This also crossed my mind. An extremely valid concern, seemingly taking the correct steps in going to the school board…. But then topped off with very questionable wording. I’d be afraid of retaliation against the business and owner for that comment, before any action is taken by the district


GargantuanWitch t1_j5p04mp wrote

White guy running a business and doesn't like the neighborhood it's in or the people who are nearby? Sure, let's call it a ghetto! He's not racist, we swear! He has a Black friend!


AntiStatistYouth t1_j5p6u6x wrote

>“There can be over 50 kids hanging out, waiting at the bus stop at any given time. Many hang out in front of my building. Last week, the kids broke my large play glass front window of my karate studio. $975 to replace. Every day, they litter and more,” Mowod said.

If you have a storefront in a business district by a city bus stop there are going to be lots of people hanging around. If there is a giant city highschool around the corner, there are going to be lots of teenagers. There will be litter, there will be loud crowds, etc. That is just reality.

That said, something should be done if windows are getting broken. That is way too far. Guy should be more selective with his word choice though.


anthrax3000 t1_j5pbptt wrote

They even entered his studio and threatened to fight him. Do you know how many students will no longer feel safe signing up for his business now?


GargantuanWitch t1_j5pir6l wrote

No one is avoiding a martial arts school that's been in the area for 40 years because one time kids went inside and made him look like a dummy.


anthrax3000 t1_j5pqx4t wrote

"Kids went inside and made him look like a dummy"

No, you're going to avoid it because 5 young adults (teenagers are not kids and are often tall AF) can enter at any time and threaten to fight people.

Would you feel safe at work if 5 young adults came in and threatened to fight your manager? And then continued to hang out outside your workplace every day?


Strongbow85 t1_j5rso63 wrote

Exactly, you can be a professional boxer or MMA and you're not going to win 5 on 1. Not to mention they may have weapons on them.


meet-kd t1_j5t92xj wrote

Except ya know, maybe the owner.

It’s not like our government makes it easy for a small business to survive, let alone thrive. Being beaten down by the handicap of not being a giant corporation magnifies the way this affects the business.


GottaWanna t1_j5pdhuo wrote

🙋‍♂️never littered on the streets here or anywhere else. Not once. It is 100% avoidable.


Strongbow85 t1_j5rseyk wrote

> That said, something should be done if windows are getting broken. That is way too far. Guy should be more selective with his word choice though.

It goes beyond windows, a girl was gangraped in the bathroom of a neighboring business.


[deleted] t1_j5p4wkl wrote

I mean they raped a special ed student last October so yeah this isn’t new. Anyone who lives in the area knows it’s actually a problem (irrespective of how this guy talked about it sure).


meet-kd t1_j5t8do4 wrote

As a father of a special needs child, I begrudgingly believe that these children’s parents probably wouldn’t see their children again if it were my kid. Not proud of that by any means. Just scared of what I would do


imadv8r2 t1_j5v6ce8 wrote

Everyone should know that newly elected Allegheny County Common Pleas Judge Tiffany Sizemore DISMISSED ALL THE CHARGES against the Alderice students (with lengthy juvenile records) who assaulted and hospitalized an on duty, uniformed city police offer and three others at the Starbucks.

These kids continue their actions because there ARE NO repercussions or penalties.

Now ask yourselves why our police can’t do their jobs. In fact, ask them, though many won’t risk losing their 20 year pension by outing Downtown mandates.

Then look at the people who’ve been elected and their agendas.

Yep, this behavior starts at home, but when parents are children of that system too, they are part of the problem.

Regardless, no punishment makes for the free for all this has become.

Squirrel Hill South is rapidly becoming the Wild West and no sherif in town can run out the bad guys. Er, Alderdice students.


GargantuanWitch t1_j5pgw3v wrote

The same kids who are out front of the karate place raped a student?


[deleted] t1_j5phz5o wrote

Same group of students that congregates and happened two doors down from the studio.

Oh you think this is some kind of gotcha comment I see. Whatever. You take care.


WorkingPleasant t1_j5radvo wrote

Definitely not the same group of students. I’m a student at allderdice and I know who the people involved in both incidents are and that they are not the same whatsoever.


GargantuanWitch t1_j5pi8qz wrote

Sounds like you should call the police, then, since you've positively identified criminals.


JustHereForTheSaul t1_j5pl195 wrote

Sounds like you should step away from the computer and head down to this area to gently remind the students to mind their manners. That's all they need is some positive encouragement.


happy_lil_toebeans t1_j5r4u7b wrote

It is sad to say, but as a teacher, these behaviors have become the norm in many schools and the one I taught at. I had to leave brick and mortar because of this. I would see mobs of kids beating the crap out of each other inside and even a few blocks away outside of school...especially at the bus stop.

At this point, I don't know what a good solution may be. I feel for all my fellow teachers still working in brick and mortar in our city, and all I can do is hope by some miracle, these students can learn some common sense.


hoetheory t1_j5sjjhm wrote

It’s going to continue to get worse. Parents who are working 2 to 3 jobs just to make ends meet don’t have the mental capacity to parent their children. Instead, we get iPad kids, and children who are emotionally immature. This leads to children feeling neglected, and intern leads to negative behaviors and inappropriate handling of emotions. It literally all leads back to capitalism.

Then, throw in a teacher who is also overworked and underpaid, with zero support staff. Add in 30 to 60 students in a singular classroom. Teachers can’t be responsible for helping students work through and process emotions and teach an entire class a lesson.

Our country is in a state of chronic fatigue, and it’s just going to continue getting worse.


blondiebell t1_j5u8l5e wrote

Very well said. Its awful how unwilling so many people in charge are to admitting the root problem is capitalism. It's not the children's fault at all, they are literally children. Capitalism means their parents dont have time to care if they want to also keep a roof over their heads, their teachers dont have the time or energy to handle problems for individual students even if they care. Our shitty healthcare system means that parents and their kids alike cant get accessible treatment for physical, emotional, or mental issues. Our justice system means many students dont have both parents, or are targeted before they are even adults.

So many problems in our society come from unchecked greedy and capitalism and tragically children seem to be bearing the brunt of it.


bubble_blower678 t1_j5yixq2 wrote

i worked at a before and after school care center in pittsburgh and feel similar to how teachers cant give individual attention to each student and their issues. another problem is, with teachers and before and after care, is the turn around rate. the lack of staff support, overworking the staff, and being understaffed brings fast turnaround rates in these jobs which makes it difficult for these kids to find trust in any adults. this brings distance from children in the classroom, thus bringing violence with them to school and elsewhere bc they cant figure out their emotions. which is no blame on them at all. its the system and capitalism


KentuckYSnow t1_j5rqxec wrote

Free public education shouldn't be an entitlement, it should be a privilege that can be lost. The kids and their families know they can't be kicked out permanently.

If we still had neighborhood schools, and least their families would see the shit that they're doing. Kids don't respect someone else's neighborhood because they get to leave at night.


GargantuanWitch t1_j5vxcu9 wrote

So the solution for kids who aren't being educated is to... refuse to educate them?

And we do have neighborhood schools. That's what Allderdice is. It's a public school. If you live in the neighborhood, you go to that school. Same thing with Mount Lebanon. Students who go to Allderdice are a part of the community already.


imadv8r2 t1_j5q8jjd wrote

You know…Representative Dan Frankel has his office in the very building both the karate studio where the owner was accosted/window broken and where the Starbucks is in whose bathroom the underage girl was gang raped/in front of which where all the mayhem takes place.

I wonder what he thinks about all this?

Since he hasn’t weighed in, perhaps we should find out?


Maybe he can impress upon someone to take action.


Ralph_the_Dude t1_j5q9rdo wrote

What action though? The problem here is not one that can be fixed simply.


Pennsylvasia t1_j5p5198 wrote

I was not clear from the article, but is this a PAT/PRT bus stop, or a school bus stop? It says only the district has the authority to move it, so if it's a school bus stop I don't see why it can't simply be in front of the school. Poor choice of words, but also shitty that kids are vandalizing property. Not really sure what can be done, though. If it's students causing the problems the district could put "hall monitors" of sorts outside near the stops in afternoons, but considering they don't even have enough staff to fill their classes and can't keep people safe in the classroom, having paraprofessionals guarding the Starbucks is out of the question.


[deleted] t1_j5p5ft3 wrote

It’s a city bus stop. The kids use city buses.

There are already cops guarding the Starbucks because of what has happened there and the Starbucks has switched to mobile ordering only in the afternoons because of how the kids treat the employees.


imadv8r2 t1_j5peg1l wrote

Wrong. Starbucks baristas embrace the Alderdice students and push back against the police that show for the e almost daily calls for fights and unruly behavior.

The police that are already at Starbucks and ignored by these kids or on paid, private detail and have been hired by Starbucks after an UNDERAGED GIRL WAS GANG RAPED IN THEIR BATHROOM. Though they still supposedly must carry out their official police duties, Starbucks has given them a mandate not to mess with the kids. They are, sadly, $90 an hour façades.

Yep, the bus stop should be moved up to the school, but Starbucks’ employees especially condoning—or at the least, facilitating—their behavior is also to blame.


[deleted] t1_j5pfvyi wrote

I have witnessed first hand on many occasions the baristas getting harassed by the students and explaining to other customers that the bathroom is locked because of the students, that doesn’t seem like embracing them but okay. And the location is absolutely now mobile only during school dismissal hours.

And yeah I know the rape happened there it doesn’t say it in the article I linked above but everyone in the neighborhood knows it was there. Very sad.


OisinKaliszewski t1_j5qci1u wrote

I have 2 friends who work there, and I used to live a few blocks away on Alderson street.

I know for a fact that the employees hate that time of day when all the high schoolers come out and come in there. They treat the employees like shit.


imadv8r2 t1_j5pkp9b wrote

Yep, take out only thanks to the actions of the those people and Starbucks corporate worried about even more backlash in Pittsburgh what with the ongoing unionization efforts.

To my knowledge, one barista stood up to those people and was reprimanded by corporate, while the rest of the staff took down “one student at a time” signs posted by police on detail, and continued to allow them in despite admonition by said police, and, thus, perpetuating the situation.

Regardless, it is incredibly sad that the actions of those people have, and continue to, make a once peaceful area virtually impassable during certain afternoon hours, make pedestrians cower and avoid businesses because of their actions.

The worst part is that no one is willing to do anything—except for question the vernacular used when referring to the perpetrators, rather than actually punishing them—or at least attempting real solutions to the problem.


Sankara_Connolly2020 t1_j5qnler wrote

People choose the soft bigotry of low expectations over confronting uncomfortable social realities.


aboutsider t1_j5tg4tb wrote

What's the uncomfortable social reality that you think people aren't confronting?


Sankara_Connolly2020 t1_j5v8c3c wrote

That a greatly disproportionate amount of violent crime and antisocial behavior comes from young black males and there is no one easy answer to why the problem exists or what the solution is.

And because liberals/leftists are afraid to acknowledge this reality, they cede the narrative to conservatives who simplify it to one purely of cultural factors and largely carceral solutions, when what’s needed is a thorough revaluation of social welfare, educational, housing, criminal justice, and industrial policy.


aboutsider t1_j5yb00h wrote

Where do you see leftists ignoring this reality? I see folks on the left side of the political spectrum talk about this stuff all the time-- the causes and solutions. They mention a lot of the stuff that you mention, in fact. Can you explain ceding the narrative to conservatives?


Sankara_Connolly2020 t1_j61ujcw wrote

From my experience, most people on the proverbial left have a hard time recognizing the extent to which violent crime is so prevalent amongst young black males, and when they do, the root of the problem is reduced to “systemic racism,” and the solutions are viewed as abstractions like “dismantling white supremacy.” Not to say that historical realities like redlining don’t play a major part in this phenomenon, but racism is. often viewed as a sort of original sin that is to be addressed with repentance, not concrete political change.

When policy is discussed, the conversation tends to shift towards of over-correction of criminal justice mistakes of the past that borders on nihilism and runs counter to what the vast majority of black voters actually support. Attempts to address the class dynamics with a materialist analysis are met with charges of “economic reductionism” and acknowledgement of the cultural aspects, especially the decline of the black family, that while overemphasized by conservatives is still certainly a major factor, is met with outright hostility.

More importantly, as evidenced by this thread, when white “normies,” for lack of a better term, express their concerns about violent black teenagers causing harm to their businesses and the general quality of life of their neighborhoods, they’re met with derision from liberals/leftists and often accused of being straight up fascists for daring to care about the safety of themselves and their neighbors…. And when black normies say the same things, they’re straight up ignored because they’re not going along with the narrative that black people are helpless victims of an oppressive system with no agency.

In general, I think there’s a lot of white guilt that clouds people’s ability to recognize thr social causes that perpetuate racism, that the fear of “ghetto” blacks is based on, to use the parlance of our times, “lived experience.” Which of course is not to say that racism doesn’t unfairly harm the vast majority of black people, including young black men, who are just normal, law-abiding citizens trying to live their lives like everyone else. What it means is that until the complex socio-economic issues that cause the disparity in violent crime amongst young black men (which hurts working black women more than anyone!) are addressed, the social problems caused by that violence will continue to perpetuate racist sentiments, damaging the ability to create the political will through a diverse working class coalition to solve the root of these problems.

I do think there are plenty of serious political thinkers out there who have a good understanding of the problem and possible solutions, ranging from restructuring the welfare state to encourage family building, to delocalizing school funding, to tying industrial policy to vocational training programs in poor areas (both urban and rural) that lost their moorings during deindustrialization. The problem is the discourse is so fraught on the left, that talking outside of the narrow strictures of the culturally ascendent professional-managerial elite is severely frowned upon.


aboutsider t1_j636hfr wrote

I think you might need to explain the "decline of the black family". I've heard similar things said but it seems to be based on perceptions rather than reality. For instance, the notion that black fathers are typically absent is based on the fact that black parents are less likely to be married. But being married does not a family make.

Honestly, it seems like you're basing all of this off of how you see people respond on social media or in public forums. I'm not sure that that's the best method of determining the nuances of anyone's political position. You're taking the loudest, most extreme voices and using that to get a feel for what the left as a whole believes or thinks. I'm not sure I agree that what you've described is a good representation of the left.

Also, I think you might be ignoring the fact that some of those people being called names are actually saying shit that is racist, classist, and ageist. You can sincerely want to protect your neighborhood while doing all those things. In fact, wanting to "protect your neighborhood" can often make one more tribalistic and insular. I think it's important to point out those prejudices when we see them. I think most people are just too deluded or ashamed to see and admit that they harbor those prejudices.


Sankara_Connolly2020 t1_j69qt2m wrote

I think you might need to explain the "decline of the black family". I've heard similar things said but it seems to be based on perceptions rather than reality.

From the book “Of Boys and Men:” “Black mothers are three times as likely as white mothers to be single parents (52% v. 16%) and half as likely to be living with a spouse (41% v. 78%).” That book is, in my opinion, downright cowardly in its failure to address the crime statistics for young black men and primary role that plays in perpetuating anti-black racism, but it does do a good job of explaining the social and financial pressures black women face compared to other “racial” groups.

Honestly, it seems like you're basing all of this off of how you see people respond on social media or in public forums.

Hon, I have 20+ years of experience off and on in left wing political orgs and social circles, and the loudest, most extreme voices on the internet are usually the loudest, most extreme voices in the room. It’s a one circle Venn diagram. Talking about racial issues in a way that is even remotely heterodox (i.e. the way most working class people of all “races” talk about them) is anathema.

Also, I think you might be ignoring the fact that some of those people being called names are actually saying shit that is racist, classist, and ageist. You can sincerely want to protect your neighborhood while doing all those things. In fact, wanting to "protect your neighborhood" can often make one more tribalistic and insular. I think it's important to point out those prejudices when we see them. I think most people are just too deluded or ashamed to see and admit that they harbor those prejudices.

And here you have made my argument better than I ever could have myself! “We must educate the ignorant masses to ignore their lying eyes” and “The scoldings will continue until moral improves;” a perfect encapsulation of the social half of why the left continues to fail to win an effective political majority!


aboutsider t1_j6cj7oq wrote

Yes, those are exactly the statistics to which I'm referring. They show marital and living status but don't actually detail parental involvement or family strength. Do you have stats on that?

Um, ok? I do too. And, I dunno what kind of organizations you belong to or people you associate with but all the leftists I know are working class. And, they may be extreme but they don't just talk. They're very active on all fronts. Sucks that you've only been surrounded by lazy ass elitists but you shouldn't assume that's representative of the whole.

And here you have proven my point-- your making some pretty prejudiced assumptions about the intent of those commenting on racist language. You ignore that it's racist or classist so you can scold leftists about taking some moral high ground and why this makes them political losers. You're cool with letting that racist shit be said because the thing which you find really objectionable is your perception that leftists are nothing but virtue signaling elitists. Which doesn't even make a whole lot of sense-- what political side doesn't take a moral high ground and virtue signal and scold those who don't follow it? Does that mean that no side will ever achieve an effective political majority?


Sankara_Connolly2020 t1_j6eete8 wrote

Yes, those are exactly the statistics to which I'm referring. They show marital and living status but don't actually detail parental involvement or family strength. Do you have stats on that?

Here’s a starter pack for you, but feel free to do your own research if you don’t like what you see:

It’s obvious that, even if the majority of the issues that correlate with fatherlessness are economic, then fatherlessness is a serious economic issues that perpetuates cycles of poverty and the associated social problems. The extent to which it’s a problem when controlling for class is in an interesting one, and I’m open to debate on that point.

Do you have any evidence saying that fatherlessness is not a serious problem? Because I haven’t found any that isn’t anecdotal or specious.

I dunno what kind of organizations you belong to or people you associate with but all the leftists I know are working class.

It sounds like you’ve never had the misfortune of being a heretic. I don’t recommend it for everyone, but there is something rather liberating about excommunication.

In the broadest definition, most lefties are working class. But if we’re going to have a serious discussion about modern class structure, then most hyper-active lefties are downwardly mobile PMC at best, or straight up Ivy League brats at worst.

You're cool with letting that racist shit be said because the thing which you find really objectionable is your perception that leftists are nothing but virtue signaling elitists.

Do you think scolding working class people for being concerned about criminal elements fucking up their neighborhoods because there are icky racial dynamics at play, and because they don’t phrase things using the delicate language of the academy, makes the left come off more or less like virtue-signally elitists?

Which doesn't even make a whole lot of sense-- what political side doesn't take a moral high ground and virtue signal and scold those who don't follow it?

The ones that win.

Do you think the average CIO organizer went around chastising steelworkers for their social prejudices? Or do you think they brought a diverse group of working class men together through common struggle, and let that shared material experience and struggle for dignity take the lead in overcoming the bigotry that the bosses tired incite?


aboutsider t1_j6hn2r8 wrote

I never said fatherlessness isn't a serious issue. I'm saying that you have yet to prove that it's an issue in the black community. You're taking statistics about marriage and living situation and conflating that with parental involvement. Just because two people aren't married or living together, doesn't mean that both parents aren't involved. Why do you keep making that assumption? Do you have any statistics that prove that black children are "fatherless" at a higher rate than white children?

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make about class? You said that most leftist rhetoric isn't working class. Ok, that's not my experience. Just because you're only listening to the loudest, richest, and most influential voices, doesn't mean that lots of leftists aren't discussing real world solutions that actually make sense for them as the working class. You've been trying to push this rigid definition of leftists but at every turn you seem to move the goal posts. So, are leftists out of touch with the working class or are they actually more likely to be working class while the minority of leftists are out of touch richies?

Hahaha, yes, dude. I, as an anti-authority, queer, disabled atheist woman who comes from a family of criminals living in a dying rust belt town, know nothing of being considered a heretic!

Can you not see that this is a deflection that kinda totally proves my point? I point out that you're more concerned with confronting leftists about appearances than confronting racists about their racism and you ask me how you think I appear as a leftist confronting racism? Um, I'm not too concerned with appearances, to be honest. I don't really care if people think I'm virtue signaling or scolding or whatever. I'm not in control of what other people think. I'm in control of what I do and say. And, I do and say based on what I believe is right. If you, like others, choose to focus on how offended you are because someone said that your behavior or words could be construed as racist rather than doing the hard work that comes with examining those claims then that's on you.

Hahaha, ok, which political party that's winning, doesn't take the moral high ground, doesn't scold, doesn't virtue signal?

No, I absolutely do not think that union heads were chastising workers for their social prejudices. Know why? Because it's pretty well known that the early unions were extremely racist and discriminatory. They didn't bring together a diverse group of working class men". In fact, you'd be amazed at how many unions were started because of or motivated by the threat of cheap black labor or simply integration. It's believed that black wealth has fallen so far behind in large part because of the discrimination and exclusion of black people in unions for decades. That bigotry was never overcome. Instead it was institutionalized. So, yeah, the union was successful... at improving the status of lots of white folks at the expense of black folks. Are you sure that this is the model that you'd like to follow?


Sankara_Connolly2020 t1_j6j0jxc wrote

There’s clearly not a stat on black fatherhood that is going to force your head out of the sand. Not gonna keep kicking at a moving goal post.

Gonna skip ahead to your last paragraph, because oh boy, you have swallowed the race-reductionist, anti-labor, New Deal revisionism whole-heatedly, haven’t you? Don’t know what to tell you if you don’t think the CIO and the New Deal was beneficial for black wealth and planted the seeds for the Civil Rights movement. You might want to type A. Phillip Randolph into the old search engine as a good starting point.


Alex0369 t1_j5rcgug wrote

I used to work at a Business in Squirrelhill and we had a huge issue with large groups of teenagers coming in and trashing the place and the bathrooms. We had a rule that no more than two teenagers could be inside at one time. Once there was a couple kids with a basketball that were bouncing it against the window and later I learned they had stolen the basketball from the JCC and it was apparently a chronic issue. I also saw a kid open up the gas cap on the bus and throw some thing inside. There were literally groups of teenagers roaming the streets repeatedly up and down Murray Avenue and yelling and hitting people. That was one of the main reasons I quit that job.


ididacannonball t1_j5sa7qq wrote

I've actually seen businesses with signs to the effect of "all minors must be accompanied by an adult".


Caiterz4catzz t1_j5qbki0 wrote

Honestly they just need to move this stop back to Murray/Forward. It got moved due to construction but it’s not that intense anymore 🤷🏻‍♀️


Zenith2017 t1_j5zugww wrote

I can't imagine how much messier that intersection would be if there was a PRT stop right there, holy cow


Caiterz4catzz t1_j603vec wrote

Actually where it is now is more of a problem. Before, it was at the stoplight. Now it’s just a little up the way, so the bus stopping there seems to be pretty disruptive to morning traffic, especially when you have several buses back to back


Zenith2017 t1_j6043tq wrote

I wonder if up the other side of Murray would make sense. Near the quest diagnostics etc


pitt91801 t1_j5rgqcr wrote

I’ll work overtime until I can’t walk anymore before any of my kids are in PPS.


Ralph_the_Dude t1_j5q923s wrote

So his solution is just to move them elsewhere? This is a systematic issue caused by generational poverty, it's not like kids are just born bad. Keeping poor people and rich people separate only helps to make the issue worse.


risen2011 t1_j5qvsdk wrote

There's more than generational poverty going on here. I'm from Squirrel Hill. Years ago this problem didn't exist even though there were students from low-income neighborhoods at Dice. Of course, the bus stop was on the other side of Forward, but even then we didn't have the sorts of fracases that we're having now.

Something else is going on here that's causing these issues in recent years. I haven't lived in Squirrel Hill recently, so I don't know what it is.


Revving-Engine2497 t1_j5xptko wrote

Where would you recommend living that Doesn't have this problem? Looking into Pittsburgh in the future.


Zenith2017 t1_j5zvt3x wrote

I'm in squirrel hill now and it's been a very minor disruption to my life if any. That's not in any way justifying the atrocious and evil behaviors taking place.

Depending on your work and income some other similar neighborhoods are Shady side, point breeze, parts of east liberty (quickly becoming an attractive spot). All of these have $$$ as a caveat


risen2011 t1_j61pw2r wrote

To add, this is taking place in the southern end of the neighborhood. You wouldn't really be near this if you lived near Wilkins (but $$$).


Early_Platypus_8855 t1_j5qikae wrote

Theyre already exposed to the most prestigious high school in one of the wealthiest neighborhoods of the city, yet they still act like animals. Not sure how much "worse" they could get by not being exposed to rich people on the daily.


Hour-Astronomer122 t1_j5qrt80 wrote

I believe what Ralph may have been referring to is segregation of housing which is a systemic issue that was caused by red lining & still has long standing negative repercussions today. It has created concentrated poverty that leads to anger, hopelessness & major barriers to being upwardly mobile. So the poverty cycle generationally continues.

Being exposed to a wealthier neighborhood while having to actually live in a low resource area will not fix the systemic problem. Breaking up poverty concentration is vital. This is why the mixed income housing model is being implemented & studied as a way to lead to better economic mobility for poor people, particularly younger generations. However, this is often highly contested by NIMBYs & land use zoning laws that need to be reformed so more affordable housing is available.

This is not an excuse for their behavior. Those behaviors are not acceptable. However, this should serve as a reminder that we as a society, from all economic backgrounds, have a responsibility to correct systemic issues by pressuring our local, state & federal governments to come up with long term, sustainable solutions to provide more resources to those in our society who are struggling the most. Shuffling them somewhere else for them to suffer as long as we don’t have to see or be affected by their inequities is not a solution. Supporting everyone in our society strengthens society as a whole.


Alexispinpgh t1_j5qr0zm wrote

This comment is absolutely hilarious. You know nothing about Allderdice.


KoltsovtheBest71 t1_j5r6utf wrote

Lol Allderdice is a joke. Any non-advanced course class is basically a daycare. Can only imagine how much worse it has gotten since I graduated a decade ago.


MauraMcBadass t1_j5shfwv wrote

Yeah, this comment makes it clear that you are fairly ignorant about Allderdice and about how wealth inequality works in general. You don’t become wealthy via osmosis. Exposure to people who have more than you for no discernible reason besides race or random happenstance doesn’t make you suddenly want to go out of your way to be perfect in every way imaginable. More likely, it makes you mad. And mad teenagers do stupid shit, especially when peer pressure is involved.

Beyond that, Allderdice is shockingly segregated and has been for decades. The PPS Gifted Program has historically been overwhelmingly full of white kids from “good neighborhoods.” Black students currently make up less than 35% of the students in the program, district-wide. That’s not because they aren’t hard workers or don’t have the capacity to excel at higher levels, but because they simply weren’t offered the same advantages as their white peers. So tons of brilliant kids are stuck in practically remedial mainstream classes by no fault of their own, bored out of their minds, with no resources to help them engage more and actually learn and excel.

And I feel like I need to mention again, wealth isn’t a communicable disease. Exposure to it doesn’t mean you’re more likely to become wealthy yourself, especially if that exposure is fleeting and superficial.


meet-kd t1_j5t9svw wrote

Agree with most of this, except being exposed makes you mad. As someone who grew up beyond poor, it was more of a motivation.

We all know what the issue is. It’s guidance, acceptance and love. And we all know that we personally can help make a positive impact, yet it’s easier to do this online.

Complaining about it will never do a single thing to change it. That’s not directed at you specifically; it’s more of a group comment.

I’m newer to the area so I don’t actually know where some of these areas are, but if anyone has any suggestions on where positive adults could be useful feel free to share.


aboutsider t1_j5tgf0y wrote

It made you motivated. It easily could've made someone else mad.


meet-kd t1_j5tk562 wrote

Oh I agree. Happened to my brother. Was just saying that it’s not always the worst case scenario.

Really I think it comes down to accountability. And I’m sure you noticed, overwhelming majority of people have an issue with that.


aboutsider t1_j5ybn5c wrote

Overwhelming majority of people have an issue with accountability? Nah, I wouldn't agree with such a vague statement.


MauraMcBadass t1_j5tswta wrote

Well, yeah. People are individuals and respond to their environments in different ways. My point was less that everyone would automatically be mad and destructive and more that it’s silly to assume that everyone would be motivated by the mere proximity of apparent wealth, especially since the way the school is set up keeps students of varying backgrounds separate.

The issue is at least partially guidance, acceptance, and love. Definitely. But there’s also a lot of nuance to it and the attitude of “they have gazed upon the upper middle class and have still chosen to be disadvantaged and uncivilized” is damaging and incredibly unfair to those kids.


meet-kd t1_j5tu58p wrote

You’re not wrong at all. That accountability thing could go a long way for some here who don’t even realize how they make it worse more than better.

If you ever figure out how to get that understood by the people let me know lol.

And stay warm today. Gross out


WorkingPleasant t1_j5rcl7n wrote

“Prestigious” is not the right word lol. Everyday there’s some sort of gossip with teachers or fire alarms pulled or stink bombs in every stair case. Dice fuckin sucks dude.


samang67 t1_j5ruhpp wrote

Pps had no real solutions for student behaviors and students have figured that out. There is no after school detention. There is no alternative school. There are no expulsions. There is no juvenile detention center. The district frowns upon suspension. It's bad. Real bad. Michael Jackson


kderr t1_j5sjovz wrote

Now I’m mad real mad joe jackson


ganiwell t1_j5tb70a wrote

It would be great if someone were working on getting yellow buses back for all students and removing the free PAT passes. Initially the students started hanging around that corner because the city buses can’t fit everyone at once, so they needed to wait through several cycles. (Plus the PAT drivers won’t take more than a few at a time and I do not blame them one bit.) Now I’m sure they’re hanging around because it’s, well, the hangout spot, but if their free ride home left at 2:20 in front of Dice and it’s that or pay or walk, they’d mostly take the yellow bus and the critical-mass element would be removed. I’m not saying this is a cure for all ills, but it would take some of the pressure off the areas around the school.


jnissa t1_j5tj3gg wrote

I mean, I think the entire nation is working on that. You can't manifest drivers who simply aren't there though.


ganiwell t1_j5to8lq wrote

For sure on the second part but on the first I dunno - I get the feeling that PPS considers itself to have solved the transportation problem and it’s not even on anyone’s back burner to try to get yellow buses for high schoolers, even if employment trends make that possible at any point.


Jahya69 t1_j5s94cd wrote

Close the school down


Ok_Addendum_2775 t1_j5um1jt wrote

Seen a teacher turn her head at an Mt Lebanon middle school where kids were bearing someone up.


jwormyk t1_j5yik9m wrote

Ive heard nothing but horror stories about teaching right now…. Horrible behavior problems, increase in fights, weak fragile kids and denial parents….honestly get rid of social media. I would argue its the cause of all of those issues. (Except reddit of course)


chippyinairplane t1_j5p00g4 wrote

There are a lot of people in such a tight area. Maybe they could stagger the bus schedule.


da_london_09 t1_j5pfcj4 wrote

Or maybe the kids could simply not act like garbage humans?


JustHereForTheSaul t1_j5pkp83 wrote

I mean, that's the most correct solution, but it's not one the school can implement, exactly.


da_london_09 t1_j5plod4 wrote

It's a parenting issue. If your kid can't make it thru the day without destroying or raping, they probably haven't been raised correctly. Time to stop making excuses for these kids.


JustHereForTheSaul t1_j5pm45v wrote

I totally agree! But if we're looking for practical solutions, getting these kids' parents to start taking responsibility isn't in the realm of the possible. Changing the schedules isn't the best solution, but it might be the best that we can actually do.


da_london_09 t1_j5po0m0 wrote

Better solution is just to expel the students... then no issue at the bus stop, and the parents can figure out what to do when their kid is home all day.


weavs13 t1_j5pxqc6 wrote

Except the parents aren't going to figure it out. They will just let them do as they please all hours of the day.


[deleted] t1_j5pzkb2 wrote



Ralph_the_Dude t1_j5qa41i wrote

So then kids without a GED end up as tomorrows absent parents. I think you're looking for a simple solution to a systemic issue.


aboutsider t1_j5tf0ii wrote

Yeah, that's not just their problem then, is it?


Novel_Engineering_29 t1_j5rk3rr wrote

Expelled teenagers don't stay home all day. They'll be right in that same spot waiting for their friends too get it of school.


burritoace t1_j5rsw4y wrote

An atrociously bad suggestion. It's a good thing people like you aren't in charge of this stuff


mainelinerzzzzz t1_j5r8n87 wrote

Time to stop making excuses for these parents. You can’t expect the village to raise your children.


meet-kd t1_j5ta346 wrote

“Time to stop making excuses for these parents. You can’t expect the village to raise your children.”

Why not? Isn’t that what a community is? We can’t expect a change if we do the same thing or nothing right?


Zenith2017 t1_j5zw6zo wrote

(you replied to the OP rather than the comment you're quoting)


stauss151 t1_j5wi28n wrote

I am more worried that this guy might be shedding hate towards the bus stop being where it is. Is this a potential NIMBY attack?


soparklion OP t1_j5wqyso wrote

>NIMBY attack?

ELI5 please.


stauss151 t1_j5wweq5 wrote

NIMBY stands for not in my backyard. At its basic level, a situation like this one could lead another person to think all bus stops are bad, when the real problem is lack of enforcement for behavior issues. If the city tries to expand or improve bus service, someone will always complain ”what about those evil teenagers or druggies”


KrishanuAR t1_j5s9ukr wrote

This is the school system our massive property taxes are supporting.

I wouldn’t care if the public school systems around here weren’t so shit.


RowerBoy t1_j5vknfi wrote

I wouldn’t call our property taxes massive by any means